ICE will not allow foreign students to take online-only classes in the fall

"ttyymmnn" (ttyymmnn) 07/07/2020 at 11:26 • Filed to: None

1

81

If you are a nonimmigrant student (F-1 or M-1) and your university is only offering courses online this fall due to the ongoing (and worsening) pandemic, then you are out of luck. You must leave the country or face deportation (the government prefers to call it “removal”).

Updated guidelines released by ICE yesterday rescind the temporary exemptions that allowed nonimmigrant students to take more than three credits of online courses, and give universities just nine days to let the government know if they plan to offer all online, all in-person, or hybrid classes this fall.

On Monday, the federal Student and Exchange Visitor Program announced, “The U.S. Department of State will not issue visas to students enrolled in schools and/or programs that are fully online for the fall semester nor will U.S. Customs and Border Protection permit these students to enter the United States.”

“Active students currently in the United States enrolled in such programs must depart the country or take other measures, such as transferring to a school with in-person instruction to remain in lawful status,” the announcement said. “If not, they may face immigration consequences including, but not limited to, the initiation of removal proceedings. ” ( !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! )

!!! UNKNOWN CONTENT TYPE !!!

Before the pandemic, nonimmigrant students were limited to three hours of online courses, but that rule was waived for spring and fall. This new announcement reinstates the limit, but does so at a time when many universities across the country are moving towards an all-online fall semester and have been for months in an effort to protect students, faculty, and staff. DHS gave no reason for the decision, or why they waited so long to make the announcement.

Just Jeepin' > ttyymmnn 07/07/2020 at 10:28

8

I’d say this is a terrible time to be a student, but frankly this is a terrible time to be anything.

ttyymmnn > Just Jeepin' 07/07/2020 at 10:30

15

I’m not sure if they are trying to screw the furriners, screw the liberal colleges, screw California who will likely be the hardest hit by this, make America great, or what. It just seems petty to me. 

ADabOfOppo; Gone Plaid (Instructables Can Be Confusable) > ttyymmnn 07/07/2020 at 10:32

5

Yes.

SBA Thanks You For All The Fish > ttyymmnn 07/07/2020 at 10:42

2

It only screws California insomuch as the UC and Cal State systems have veered pretty far from their original financial charters. There’s an ongoing pissing match between the Legislature and the Boards of Regents over exactly this issue.

This action didn’t give rise to the issue, but will almost certainly shine a big spotlight on it.

-- A guy who’s paid a lot of CA taxes

someassemblyrequired > ttyymmnn 07/07/2020 at 10:42

3

U.S. G overnment is currently run by a bunch of man-babies committed to smashing as much $#!^ as they can on their way out of office .

Tekamul > ttyymmnn 07/07/2020 at 10:43

10

A ll of the above.

Paired with the attacks on the H1B program, this seems like an obvious attempt to close the ‘technical’ immigration pipeline. But I can’t understand the end game. Some will say it’s to drive companies to employ qualified Americans first, but people with experience hiring in the field will tell you, those Americans largely don’t exist. The pool in many fields is sucked dry. The remaining candidates are either foreign, or barely able to fog a spoon.

The actual impact will be more remote workers in foreign lands, outsourcing to contracting companies operating in foreign lands, and outright outsourcing entire teams or departments to foreign lands.

jminer > ttyymmnn 07/07/2020 at 10:45

3

The Tech industry is also freaking out about the closing of the H1B program. I have coworkers on it and they are also (very understandably) worried about what their future looks like as they’re on H1B now and aren’t sure what renewal will look like for them.

In tech it doesn’t make any sense because tech is still at full employment (yeah it’s strange) so there isn’t any loss of jobs they’re trying to stop.  It’s also brutal on places like farms that rely on visa workers heavily.

facw > ttyymmnn 07/07/2020 at 10:47

0

All of the above probably. Regardless, it seems needlessly cruel, and also like it might be counterproductive and will just end up spreading the coronavirus  

ttyymmnn > jminer 07/07/2020 at 10:49

5

I photographed this sign at a restaurant in SD back in 2018.

ttyymmnn > facw 07/07/2020 at 10:52

1

DHS helpfully suggests that these nonimmigrant students transfer to a university holding in-person classes. Because, yeah, that’s a great solution.

I’m waiting to talk to my wife. She works high up at a university, and she’s on a meeting right now talking about all of this. It sounds like the students can take online if they stayed in the country, but they can’t take online if they went home. I mean, that kind of makes sense, but I’m waiting to hear.

jminer > ttyymmnn 07/07/2020 at 10:56

7

Yep - that looks about right. Immigration is necessary for a growing economy as they are generally the laborers willing to work harder jobs for less pay than the natural born residents. Capping immigration actually slows the growth of the US economy.

But this was never about the economy or workers - it was about good old fashioned racism.

Sir Halffast > ttyymmnn 07/07/2020 at 10:57

2

Exactly. All of the above. This is a petty act by a petty bureau of a petty department of a petty administration. It’s needless and it would have harmed exactly no one to keep the system as it was for the last semester.

shop-teacher > ttyymmnn 07/07/2020 at 10:58

1

That's batshitcrazypants.

ClassicDatsunDebate > ttyymmnn 07/07/2020 at 11:01

0

Anything that affects Universities from cashing in on foreign student tuitions will be seen as negative by them.  They are so reliant on that revenue.  They have built their budgets around them.

Tim (Fractal Footwork) > ttyymmnn 07/07/2020 at 11:05

1

Didn’t know the internal combustion engine had that sort of power!

Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available > ttyymmnn 07/07/2020 at 11:19

2

Georgia Tech released an almost identical statement I think.

ttyymmnn > Sir Halffast 07/07/2020 at 11:23

1

I think that there is an exception for foreign students who stayed in the US. Which means that if you stayed here you can take online, but you can’t take online if you went home to China or wherever. So that kind of makes sense, but it’s not clear in the order.

ttyymmnn > shop-teacher 07/07/2020 at 11:23

0

In other words, another day in paradise. 

Nibby > Just Jeepin' 07/07/2020 at 11:29

0

it’s a great time to be a virus

facw > ttyymmnn 07/07/2020 at 11:29

0

I’m not sure your update is right. Every news story I’ve read has said students without in person classes must leave or be removed.

SBA Thanks You For All The Fish > Tekamul 07/07/2020 at 11:30

0

!!! UNKNOWN CONTENT TYPE !!!

Don’t know who those “with experience hiring” are but the lawsuits tell a completely different story. The 50 year olds with MS and Doctorates in computer science, a long resume and direct experience, who find it impossible to get hired at Google, Oracle , Apple ?

Those companies have shown a clear bias to hire younger, less-expensive and more-expendable CS hires from overseas. Why are taxpayers subsidizing that?  Because this shit’s been going on since the first bubble burst in 2000.

https://www.shrm.org/resourcesandtools/hr-topics/behavioral-competencies/global-and-cultural-effectiveness/pages/google-ends-age-discrimination-suit-with-11-million-settlement.aspx

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jackkelly/2019/09/19/google-is-once-again-accused-of-age-discrimination/#61f3d4e9e60f

https://www.informationweek.com/wireless/apple-faces-age-discrimination-lawsuit/d/d-id/1094615

facw > ttyymmnn 07/07/2020 at 11:31

3

If you can’t meet demand, it sounds like you aren’t paying enough. Funny how all these supposedly pro-market business types think that the prevailing wage mean “what we want to pay” instead of “what the market will bear”.

ttyymmnn > facw 07/07/2020 at 11:31

0

Like I said, I’m not sure and don’t quote me. Since it’s based on some inside information, I’m going to pull back the update.  

SBA Thanks You For All The Fish > jminer 07/07/2020 at 11:32

0

Counterpoint: The history of ageism lawsuits, which the big companies have mostly lost, over the last 20 years.

https://www.informationweek.com/wireless/apple-faces-age-discrimination-lawsuit/d/d-id/1094615

https://www.theverge.com/2018/5/28/17401892/intel-age-discrimination-layoffs-investigation

Taylor Martin > ttyymmnn 07/07/2020 at 11:34

0

Nine days to make a critical decision that will save/end lives? The government is putting so much pressure on to reopen but we are ever so very incredibly NOT ready to do that. My school is starting to reopen its campus (it’s a year round school, no summer for me), but I think that’s crazy since my school is in FL... you know... an epicenter...

SBA Thanks You For All The Fish > ClassicDatsunDebate 07/07/2020 at 11:36

1

That’s the core issue in CA, where the average tenured salary is $206,000, and yet the Regents claim they can’t run the business on the in-state tuition levels as mandated by the State... so they continually cheat on their quotas to bring in international students at Full Tuition.

It’s ugly.  This will bring the issue to the fore.

Daily Drives a Dragon - One Last Lap > ttyymmnn 07/07/2020 at 11:37

3

Ah yes. Getting rid of smart people who came to universities legally to get smarter to.... own the libs?

ttyymmnn > Taylor Martin 07/07/2020 at 11:39

0

The secondary schools here in Austin are going to be either 100% in person or 100% online. There was talk of a hybrid to keep class sizes smaller, but I guess we’ve abandoned that idea. Seems like a no-win situation to me. 

facw > ttyymmnn 07/07/2020 at 11:40

0

This is from the ICE press release:

Nonimmigrant F-1 and M-1 students attending schools operating entirely online may not take a full online course load and remain in the United States. The U.S. Department of State will not issue visas to students enrolled in schools and/or programs that are fully online for the fall semester nor will U.S. Customs and Border Protection permit these students to enter the United States. Active students currently in the United States enrolled in such programs must depart the country or take other measures, such as transferring to a school with in-person instruction to remain in lawful status. If not, they may face immigration consequences including, but not limited to, the initiation of removal proceedings. 

(non-italic emphasis mine)

https://www.ice.gov/news/releases/sevp-modifies-temporary-exemptions-nonimmigrant-students-taking-online-courses-during

Under the reinstated rules (there had been a change for Spring and Summer) , at most 3 credits can be done online.

DipodomysDeserti > SBA Thanks You For All The Fish 07/07/2020 at 11:42

0

I’m a graduate student at ASU polytechnic and this situation has been screwing with research pretty badly. The point of having world class research schools is to bring in minds from all over the world to solve problems.

If you chase away grad students, you aren’t going to have people to continue research. It’s been a huge mess.

That’s not to say that Michael Crow wasn’t playing a dangerous game of expansion.

I’m in biological and public health based sciences where you generally don’t higher the cheapest worker.

ttyymmnn > facw 07/07/2020 at 11:42

0

The possible workaround did include three hours of face-to-face such as a seminar with your instructor, but yes, the language does seem clear. At this point, I think universities are really scrambling to find any wiggle room they can. 

Taylor Martin > ttyymmnn 07/07/2020 at 11:44

2

Either a ton of students couped up in already crowded buildings, or a ton of students unable to see their pals. And even hybrid isn’t ideal, the ideal is for all this to have never escalated to this... humans are dumb... we ought to get rid of them.

DipodomysDeserti > ttyymmnn 07/07/2020 at 11:46

2

Problem is a lot of places closed the dorms and forced people to move. ASU let foreign students stay in the dorms and just kept them quarantined which must have been terrible for them.

facw > ttyymmnn 07/07/2020 at 11:46

1

I know Harvard is quite pissed that they just announced their plans to reopen (with only 40% of undergrads on campus), and then this comes along and messes with that. It’s unclear now if they’ll prioritize having international students on campus (they were planning to bring all Freshmen, and selected others), or what else they can work out to make things happen.

SBA Thanks You For All The Fish > DipodomysDeserti 07/07/2020 at 11:47

0

here in California? It’s just a way to make the budgets work, even as professors can make $305,000 a year, even has worthy California students get denied admissions.  UC got caught playing this game last year...

https://edsource.org/2019/uc-regents-revolt-against-762-tuition-hike-for-non-californians/609839

Just Jeepin' > Nibby 07/07/2020 at 11:57

0

Not so sure. Imagine how all the other viruses that depend on human contact are doing right now.

ttyymmnn > Taylor Martin 07/07/2020 at 12:01

2

we ought to get rid of them.

We’re trying.

How many kids are going to go to school, get sick asymptotically, then go home and get their parents sick?

Nibby > Just Jeepin' 07/07/2020 at 12:03

0

ClassicDatsunDebate > SBA Thanks You For All The Fish 07/07/2020 at 12:05

1

Absolutely. In BC we have the same issue, where the budgets and capital expenditures have ballooned with the influx of foreign student tuition .

I look at UBC campus from the time I went (97-01) to now and it’s unrecognizable. I mean, it’s progress and I’m all for providing modern infrastructure for the advancements of learning but now the Institutions have morphed to where their budgetary burn rate requires the tuition levels supported by foreign students. It also puts huge upward pressure on domestic tuition , which has the potential to squeeze out less privileged students.

Another factor that I experienced first hand with my daughters degree; different acceptance standards for foreign students affecting collaborative work such as labs and group assignments.

DipodomysDeserti > SBA Thanks You For All The Fish 07/07/2020 at 12:08

0

No, I’m in Arizona. I did my undergrad at UofA, and morons from California have no problem getting into school here. ASU has built entire campuses for them. Has really driven up the price of rent in  downtown Phoenix. Kind of wish we’d make it scary for them again down there.

My cousin went to UCLA and is now an MD. He’s a smart kid. His brother is a bit of a dummy and went to SJSU.

SBA Thanks You For All The Fish > ClassicDatsunDebate 07/07/2020 at 12:14

1

My wife and I talk a lot about how “it’s all going to hit the fan now” when it becomes obvious that these institutions have little to distinguish themselves from “online” providers—- once you strip away the billions in fancy buildings and condo-grade on-campus housing— now that pretty much ALL instruction is online.

Here in the US we tend to blame the “previous administration” who fund ed hundreds of billions into tuition loan and grant programs— which only had the net effect of pumping that money into a bloated system who’s only interest seemed to be higher prof salaries and big building projects.

The whole higher-ed sector might actually be “over built” for the post-COVID world we’ll live in.

SBA Thanks You For All The Fish > DipodomysDeserti 07/07/2020 at 12:16

0

My kids were told to “go home”, but a week later it was “we need the dorms, so come back to campus IN A FOUR HOUR WINDOW OF CHAOS to get all your crap out of the dorm room you paid for through June”.

Nice.

SBA Thanks You For All The Fish > DipodomysDeserti 07/07/2020 at 12:21

1

Santa Barbara City College was intended to be “a local junior college option” for locals— and mostly in-state. With enrollment capped at 5,000.

In the quest for bigger budgets, SBCC years ago opened their doors to international students— enrollment blew past 30,000 years ago, it’s now much, much larger than UCSB. And, housing in that part of town? Is a complete shitshow.  Never under-estimate the financial incentives these administrations have to bend the rules for a bigger budget.

https://www.independent.com/2015/06/17/many-ucsb-and-sbcc-students-struggle-homelessness/

wafflesnfalafel > ttyymmnn 07/07/2020 at 12:28

0

I nteresting - that could cause even more funding issues for colleges . Our state schools out here make bank off international students...

fintail > ttyymmnn 07/07/2020 at 12:30

1

Through all this, the ridiculous EB-5 program will no doubt remain untouched (probably expanded due to the current regime, seeing that beneficiary of nepotism Jared was hawking it not long ago). But if it helps make some of the locust generation a little richer (including at least a couple who post here, no doubt) , it’s good.

I wonder how this will impact “student” athletes who might not be US citizens - the NCAA sponsors quite a few Canadian hockey players who come south for “academics”.

ttyymmnn > wafflesnfalafel 07/07/2020 at 12:31

0

Most large state universities make bank off of foreign students. 

fintail > someassemblyrequired 07/07/2020 at 12:32

0

I wonder if mini-Goebbels Miller is behind any of this.

ttyymmnn > fintail 07/07/2020 at 12:37

0

Had to look that program up. Never heard of it. 

fintail > ttyymmnn 07/07/2020 at 12:41

1

It’s a significant contribut or to real estate price spikes on the west coast.   Lots of dirty money, as vetting is lax at best.

jminer > SBA Thanks You For All The Fish 07/07/2020 at 12:49

0

T hat’s a big problem too. Most folks move into management when they get older in tech though. Part of it honestly is the pace at which tech moves though, if you’re not constantly involved in the latest trend you don’t have a job. There is definitely discrimination that plays into it, but a some of it is also just some folks don’t keep up.

A lot of older programmers end up in government work, as they government is usually 10 or more years behind the private sector so it’s tech they’re experienced in.

SBA Thanks You For All The Fish > jminer 07/07/2020 at 13:57

0

Oh, that’s pretty much Chapter-and-Verse of the “ageism” handbook’s foreward, right?

There was the famous case of the 54 y/o who was TEACHING Ruby-on-Rails at the local tech university, but couldn’t GET A JOB writing Ruby-on-Rails at any of the local tech companies.

In CS? This has usually been found to be a myth—

!!! UNKNOWN CONTENT TYPE !!!

Certainly, with modern dev tools it’s actually much, much easier to write IOS apps... and the modern dev environments make it easier to build stable cross-platform apps for IOS and Android. Ditto web-based apps. Ditto UI design and QA. Even Version Control is a piece of cake these days.

On a basic skills test? Usually the older guy has better, broader skills— he had an OS course, once coded Assembly, took Algorithms from the Knuth series. These days? Modern CS programs are so broad that fundamentals don’t even fit in the curriculum anymore . We have several “embedded design” companies in the portfolio—- and it’s damn hard to find that skillset  in recent grads.  Nobody knows assembly anymore.  Nobody knows how a compiler works or how a processor micro-codes the pipeline processing.    In CS it’s really hard to support the case that “the tech has moved so fast”.  Even if I pick on Tesla, the motor tech was designed over 100 years ago...  it’s not as “new and leading edge” as you claim.  Try get a job there if you are 50.  Good luck.

You might have a case for very specialized jobs— like in the chase for better batteries, a degree in Inorganic Chem with a research project in the micro-structures of Lithium or Palladium? Sure.

But, generally there’s a 1000 jobs in CS or EE for every “specialist” job that might be better filled from a doctoral candidate from China. But you’ll have better luck getting rid of herpes than landing a job at Google if you’re 55 and need a job in your field.

ZHP Sparky, the 5th > ttyymmnn 07/07/2020 at 14:04

3

THANK YOU for posting about this. A topic that is really hitting me hard, given that I was a student on an F-1 visa for college and grad school (2002-2007), on H-1B after that (also currently “paused”) (2007-2015) until I finally got my green card, and became a citizenship in 2019 - SEVENTEEN years for anyone counting. And I’m not from one of the backlogged countries (those folks just give up and don’t even bother at this point).

I wrote this on FB just a bit ago, guess might as well post it here -

TL;DR - This action is mean and unnecessary. Friends, please speak out against this. Every single one of you in the US (and many others) know me because I was one of these students – I can’t even imagine what my life would be today if it had been disrupted like what is happening here. Don’t get distracted by the tweets trying to divide us, focus on these actions instead.

***********************************************************************

While the president distracts us all with his ridiculous tweets, here’s an example of actual damage his administration is executing behind the scenes. Is this decision simply meant to pressure universities in to irresponsibly reopening for in-person teaching, an attempt to disrupt and intimidate foreigners, or both?

I was an international student in this country until 2007 that this rule would’ve applied to. After that I was on an H-1B visa (also often vilified, also currently on pause for new applicants/renewals) before I got my green card in 2015, and then finally got my citizenship last year after being in this country legally for SEVENTEEN years (and I truly was one of the lucky ones). There are many discussions we can have around improving and updating our immigration system without rash blanket decisions that upend countless lives and dreams in the middle of a global pandemic.

If you’ve ever made the comment that immigrants should come to the US “the right way” let me tell you this is one of the very few “right ways” that currently exists. So if you truly believe this, please speak out against this horrible decision, write to your representatives (I use ResistBot, it’s very easy), and VOTE. It truly matters, and the priorities and policies of one administration vs. another truly impacts actual people.

Many of these students being asked to leave may literally have no way to go back home due to travel restrictions, are being asked to take online classes from distant time zones, abandon their homes and lives in the US, and will not know when/if they will be able to resume their regular academic schedule (let alone if they can afford the financial impacts of all this). I will also add that this is a rash and vindictive decision that is only going to make a shaky economic situation even worse for our communities (apartment leases terminated, loss of money they spend on food, essentials, etc. to name just a few things).

This isn’t even close to the most pressing issue in this country right now, but is simply unnecessary, and one that hits close to home and that I hope more of you will speak out against. This also doesn’t just affect a few people – there are hundreds of thousands of students this will impact. They are doing nothing more than trying to get an education – many of them will become future citizens, the kind we claim to want - they will be upstanding citizens, educated, business leaders, etc. Others will go back to their countries and spread goodwill about the US, it’s education system, their experiences here, etc. They deserve to be given flexibility to just take online classes if that’s what their universities are offering during these unprecedented times.

This is not a plot these students worked up to “game the system”, they are trying to deal with this out of control mess just the same way that you are, only far away from their families and without many of the support systems we may have. This is not the time for our government to be going out of its way to make life more difficult for them (or anyone for that matter).

Ask yourself – whose lives are being improved by this decision? Imagine being a college-aged student having your entire life being turned upside down by this right now.

ZHP Sparky, the 5th > jminer 07/07/2020 at 14:09

0

Same here. I work on the finance side at one of the big tech companies - we have SO MANY open reqs all around. My team has had a job opening (very technical finance policy role) since the end of 2019 - we got 2 (TWO!) qualified applicants looking all across the west coast, one was a dud -the other accepted an offer elsewhere.

I was an F-1 student, and also on H-1B after that until green card and citizenship last year finally. These topics are so nuanced and no one-size fits all approach exists. I worked my butt off and took nobody elses’ job, and even today will gladly hire a US applicant for that open role that exists on my team, but of course there is no candidate pool.

We keep disinvesting in education and tightening/disincentivizing immigration - this is all counter to any reasonable long term economic policy necessary given our population trends. We desperately need intelligent leadership that isn’t just pandering to a vocal xenophobic base if this country wants to continue being “Great”. 

DipodomysDeserti > SBA Thanks You For All The Fish 07/07/2020 at 14:12

1

Yeah, it’s a shit show. They probably needed the dorms for the foreign students who would have been put in DHS or MCSO detention if they didn’t have somewhere to stay (assuming they are at ASU). I don’t think PCSO  would detain students in that situation.

DipodomysDeserti > SBA Thanks You For All The Fish 07/07/2020 at 14:15

1

That’s pretty much what Michael Crow did at ASU. Absolute shit show. Except a good deal of our “foreign” students are Californians. They’re doing their best to turn Phoenix into LA.

SBA Thanks You For All The Fish > DipodomysDeserti 07/07/2020 at 14:26

1

My son (in Tempe) always laughs that the biggest dickhead drivers on that side of town are clearly “trained and minted by CA’s DMV”.

On the plus side I LOVE the new 202 Loop-- and have used it every time, except last Friday when I finally got an IKEA run in.  Beats that nonsense of the I-8 and 85 junction out in Gila Bend.

jminer > SBA Thanks You For All The Fish 07/07/2020 at 14:31

0

I’m not talking EE - that’s a skillset that hasn’t changed much in a while. There are also definitely companies that take advantage of the H1B program to pay people less, the program could without a doubt use some more regulation and rules but killing it helps noone. Companies will not pay local workers more they’ll just outsource completely.

Your Ruby on Rails example is an issue as that’s a dead language now - very few are building anything on Ruby and only maintaining legacy code base.

You’re other examples are fringe cases as well. There are people that need to know assembly compiler details and so on but it’s maybe 1 out of every 1000 developers. Code gets kicked to a build team to compile and test then sent back to the devs with bug reports to fix.

I’m not in agreement with how the tech industry has moved the last decade, it’s become so specialized it’s nutso.

My work is not as a developer but as a Systems Engineer and tech in the infrastructure space has moved at a lightening pace the last 5 years. Noone wants to maintain their own server stack or run on-prem exhange. If you’re not intimately familiar with containerization, AWS, Azure and so on technologies you’re not getting a job at a big company period. You know datacenter design - sorry useless skill 98% of companies, you can manage a high availability exchange cluster - same.  The majority of skills I’ve acquires over my 15 year career are useless now.

jminer > ZHP Sparky, the 5th 07/07/2020 at 14:40

0

This exactly is it! It’s a large complex problem requiring a large complex solution.

I’m right now trying to get a job out in SF but have come upon an unexpected complication. I’m a Systems Engineer but have spent the last few years specialized in managing physical spaces (door access and video surveillance at an enterprise scale) which is proving tough as a lot of companies are re-evaluating their spaces and even drawing back right now. Had two companies I was interviewing with close the positions without hiring anyone in the last 6 months.

Now I have to beef up my resume under the general Systems Engineer portions...

SBA Thanks You For All The Fish > jminer 07/07/2020 at 14:41

0

The Ruby-on-Rails lawsuit was 6 years ago now. The guy won. Most of the Ageism suits are won.

At the end of the day, the H1-B thing is largely a scam to get younger, hungrier workers who’ll work for less and not care about shitty benefits. Weird for an industry with a trillion dollars parked but no interest in supporting the economy that nurtured them.

Not in all cases, but I’d bet 99% of the hires have vast pools of candidates in the country. Google and the others just don’t want to hire them. Which is why they’ve lost so many of those suits.

It’s been a long time since Google ditched “Do No Evil”, eh?

jminer > SBA Thanks You For All The Fish 07/07/2020 at 14:48

1

You’re point of Tech hiring young workers and working them to the bone is 100% accurate, this is a lot of why they hire straight out of universities. They can pick up a 21 year old, give them free food, a 6 figure salary and work them 60 hours a week.

Most large companies are evil period - it’s a sad and shitty truth.

someassemblyrequired > fintail 07/07/2020 at 15:01

1

Probably.  He’s a war criminal in my book. This is the most minor of his offenses.

ZHP Sparky, the 5th > jminer 07/07/2020 at 15:04

0

Yeah remember you had mentioned that. I think many companies are putting reqs on hold right now until there is a bit more certainty on how the recovery will go. Certainly sounds like a tough time to be in the job market, best of luck. Tech is doing pretty well so even if not in your exact specialty hopefully you can find something that will get you in the door or close enough to where you want to be that it would make sense for you. 

jminer > ZHP Sparky, the 5th 07/07/2020 at 15:06

1

Yeah, I’ve got a job now so I’m lucky and their are still a lot of postings available in tech but it has slowed down a bit. It’s just strange to go from a growing and in-demand slice of an industry to one everyone’s cutting back on.

I’ll find something in the next 6 months I imagine, just have to cast a wider net than I had originally planned.

CompactLuxuryFan > SBA Thanks You For All The Fish 07/07/2020 at 15:09

0

The shrm link doesn’t seem to work on either Chrome or Safari for me but I don’t get why you’re tying ageism to international students. Immigrants age just the same as US-born employees.

All these anti-immigration policies are driving massive brain drain for the US. Since the primary education system here has been starved and choked for decades as college tuition skyrockets and the student loan system screws people over for trying to get an education, the US has just not been producing students to get into the technical fields its industry wants to thrive on. Some fields have even come to rely on international students funded by foreign governments or institutions to come do research in the US. Unless the US fixes its own education system, the jobs are either going to stay here filled by immigrants or move abroad.

Here is a look at the current landscape for AI: https://macropolo.org/digital-projects/the-global-ai-talent-tracker/

SBA Thanks You For All The Fish > CompactLuxuryFan 07/07/2020 at 15:13

0

!!! UNKNOWN CONTENT TYPE !!!

Pfft. Nothing supports this premise.  Our universities are full, our tech towns are teeming, our economy is expanding.  

AI’s been ‘the tech of the future’ for 50 years.

The tech companies have all lost their age discrimination suits. They will refuse to hire experienced qualified Americans, in deference to younger, cheaper foreign labor.

fintail > someassemblyrequired 07/07/2020 at 15:16

0

You just know he’s penning all of the tweeted and spoken racist dogwhistles, too.

CompactLuxuryFan > SBA Thanks You For All The Fish 07/07/2020 at 15:31

0

Not in all cases, but I’d bet 99% of the hires have vast pools of candidates in the country.

I have no idea what you’re basing this on. I interview candidates for software engineer positions in San Francisco regularly . The more senior the position, the fewer American applicants you get. At this point an H-1B is only a liability for an employee because companies have no idea what’s gonna happen to that program.

Maybe a handful of experienced Americans who decided to leave cities will come out of retirement as things go more remote , but the number of truly qualified applicants being turned away because they’re American and demand a higher salary than an immigrant has to be absolutely minuscule for software engineers .

There is a camp that sees American companies having pretty much any jobs abroad as “outsourcing”, but like I mentioned in a different comment, at this point the US education system isn’t putting out what American companies want so they have no recourse. More and more tech jobs are created abroad each day where even if the company is American the employee may have never even set foot in the US . I f the immigration pipeline is shut down, jobs will move abroad, not magically go to whichever body can fill the seat in the US.

CompactLuxuryFan > ZHP Sparky, the 5th 07/07/2020 at 15:40

0

Trump has been shooting the US in the foot hard lately! This + the H-1B and greencard freeze has completely severed the F-1 -> greencard pipeline, which was already a total crapshoot to begin with. I don’t understand what anybody thinks is being clamped down on here as the US quickly slides towards being the next Russia. The amount of international and even American students who graduated with me who have gone to thrive outside of the US is too damn high .

Out of curiosity, how did you manage to go from greencard to citizenship so fast? I haven’t much looked into it but I thought there was a 10 year requirement?

someassemblyrequired > fintail 07/07/2020 at 15:52

1

Yep, I blame it on zero tolerance for fighting policies in schools. Stephen Miller should have had his ass handed to him so badly in 8th grade that he thought twice for the rest of his life about sharing his dumb thoughts outside his brain.

CompactLuxuryFan > SBA Thanks You For All The Fish 07/07/2020 at 16:03

0

Brain drain has nothing to do with with universities or tech towns being full (then again, who are they full of?). Brain drain is educated people leaving a country and there’s no doubt recent policies are contributing to that.

Again, you haven’t linked age discrimination to tech companies deferr ing to younger, cheaper foreign labor (just younger and cheaper) . Like I said, being foreign is not a liability for most tech jobs, so it does not drive lower wages.

SBA Thanks You For All The Fish > CompactLuxuryFan 07/07/2020 at 16:14

0

!!! UNKNOWN CONTENT TYPE !!!

Well, AGAIN, there’s nothing in the statistics to support this nonsense.  With the turmoil in Hong Kong, once again the door’s being beaten down by the brightest and best who want to come to North America.

And there’s dozens of age discrimination suit losses by Big Tech where the Defendants were shown to have passed over qualified workers to hire less-expensive H1-B workers... literally with no legal basis to do so.

If you sincerely think “the best people” are leaving to work in dumpster fires like Bangalore, Shanghai or Mumbai...  well you’re entitled to your opinion.

ZHP Sparky, the 5th > jminer 07/07/2020 at 16:14

0

Good to at least have that assurance of a current job and paycheck so hopefully you can be more selective to find something you really like. Are you still planning that drive out to CA to scope the area out? 

fintail > someassemblyrequired 07/07/2020 at 16:15

0

Or maybe he got in a fight, and had his ass beat by a non-white kid.   Only in this regime could such a character obtain such a position.

ZHP Sparky, the 5th > CompactLuxuryFan 07/07/2020 at 16:18

0

The requirement is less than that - usually 5 years if green card through employment, or 3 years if through marriage. I thought I’d have to wait the 5 since that’s how I got my green card, but my immigration attorneys clarified that I can use the 3 year pathway since I had married my wife who is a US citizen.

Honestly we’re considering moving at some point too. The politics isn’t helping, but mainly being driven by a desire to be closer to family (split between her parents in New England and mine in Asia) and to raise our daughter in a different environment, perhaps. Not too many contenders or options to make it work long term currently though (or appetite on my end to go through an immigration process all over again) so we’ll see what happens. Ideally it’ll happen if I’m just able to move with my employer which will make it a lot less painful.

jminer > ZHP Sparky, the 5th 07/07/2020 at 16:24

0

As of now with cases and lockdown expanding everywhere I’m not going . I was planning on going in 3 weeks. I’m think August now maybe.

Being picky is a double edged sword for sure, I’m waiting for that perfect job but have been for 7 months now and looking back at it would have rather moved 6 months ago for a less than perfect job than be here for summer.  I definitely did not forsee the pandemic though throwing a wrench into the entire world.

CompactLuxuryFan > SBA Thanks You For All The Fish 07/07/2020 at 16:55

0

Why is “the best people” even in quotes? I don’t get where Americans in 2020 get that idea that the US is “full” and should only care about keeping “the best”. The US already has birthright citizenship so it’s not like the entire population has been carefully screened. In fact, protectionist concerns about foreigners coming and taking jobs just show that caring only about “ the best” doesn’t bode well... for Americans.

Most Americans are descenda nts of immigrants . I nternational students whose access Trump’s administration would love to cut have been having American children for years and years, who then grow up and contribute at least equally to people who’s parents were already American .

And AGAIN, not sure what you even mean by “ the statistics” . H-1Bs and greencards are on hold and at least one educated person’s employment authorization will end because of it, leading to them departing the US when they otherwise wouldn’t have. End of statistics needed to show brain drain.

someassemblyrequired > fintail 07/07/2020 at 17:48

0

That kid probably got beat up by a Benetton commercial. Yeah it’s only because competent, reasonable people know Trump is a grifter that Miller  has any power.

fintail > someassemblyrequired 07/07/2020 at 17:58

0

Something happened - people don’t turn out like that without influence, and I understand his family has more or less disowned him, so that might not be it.

One can tell a lot by the WH spokesperson. In this regime, it has been a merry go round of feckless sycophants - it goes deep.

someassemblyrequired > fintail 07/07/2020 at 18:46

0

I think the “liberal campuses” trope we hear a lot of is actually projection. A lot of young white males were radicalized b y the right in post-secondary environments over the last 20 years. Some schools are worse than others - note the number of Dartmouth grads on the extreme right of the GOP.

fintail > someassemblyrequired 07/07/2020 at 20:25

1

Definitely. I think there’s actually some envy/jealousy by some on the right leaning working class right that these middle class lib kids get to spend 4-8 years in the college experience without a lot of real world responsibility. That also helps with the “liberal elite” (anti-intellectual) distraction (people who use it then vote for an inheritance elite carnival barker/real estate promoter from Manhattan who’s dad bought him a fancy degree and who would pal around with the Clintons).

Then you probably have a lot of “libertarian” (right without the stones to admit it) types who come from affluent backgrounds, go to big name schools (somehow Dartmouth would be on that list) , and vote/support/work for the Rs just to reduce their own tax burden, not giving a damn about real problems caused by the movement.

shop-teacher > ttyymmnn 07/07/2020 at 21:49

1

Precisely.